Jazz Overnight

Dan Bindert Interviews Jimmy Scott

December 1999

Excerpts from the Interview Length--17:29

The year 2000 marks several milestones for Jimmy Scott. It's not only the year Scott celebrates his 75th birthday, it's also the 50th anniversary of the year he recorded his first, and greatest hit with Lionel Hampton, "Everybody's Somebody's Fool." About three years ago Scott left the New York metropolitan area to return permanently to the Cleveland area. While he is still frequently away from home due to his musical activities, Northeast Ohio is where he comes to relax and unwind. He now lives in a comfortable home in Euclid, just a stone's throw from the Lake Erie waterfront. With the 50th anniversary of Scott's national breakthrough hit in mind, I sat down with the singer in December of 1999 at 90.3 WCPN®'s studios to talk with the him about his early years in Cleveland, and about the circumstances surrounding the recording of "Everybody's Somebody's Fool."

DB–Thanks, Jimmy for coming down to the studio today. It's great to have you with us. Now, you're just back from Europe?

JS–Yes, back from Europe, and then I just ran in to New York at the Jazz Standard and had a beautiful gig there. It's a beautiful place. It was new to me in New York, because generally I am there at the new Birdland, or there's the Iridium. But this time I accepted the Jazz Standard. The young man that owns it is from Akron originally. I enjoyed it. He's got a swinging little room.

DB–What was Europe like for you on this last trip? You were there for a month?

JS–Yes, it was beautiful! We were there a whole month. It was like a promotional thing because I hadn't done a lot of work in Europe but I didn't know until lately how well accepted I was.

DB–People knew of you already ...

JS–They knew me and they knew my work, so going over turned out to be a good thing.

DB–Where did you play over there? Festivals? Clubs? Theaters?

JS–There were clubs, and then I did a lot of interviewing and promotional stuff there. In fact, I forget Jules's last name, but there's a young man in England, he's a rock artist and he wanted me to come on his show. So I did a thing for the BBC while I was there.

DB–Great. How has the new record company, Artist's Only, been for you?

JS–It's been good, to one degree. At least we were able to organize something that would balance to all listeners. Getting that across has been beautiful. But they're a little slow on other things.

DB–Not all the promotional muscle?

JS–Not only that. I don't believe, if you've got a creative music, why is it so necessary to limit the instrumentation.

DB–Were there certain things they wanted you to do, or not want you to do on the recording?

JS–They didn't want the sounds that I would request to go with the songs. I'd get the idea, well, I didn't mind doing the pop songs that we did. I was attracted to them because of the people that wrote them, and how involved they were as young musicians. I could see that they were growing musicians, not stalemated to any one style of thinking and I admired their work.

DB–That was really different thing you brought about with this latest release, all the '80s rock songs you did...

JS–But, with all music, you go back and think about Bird and all the cats. They did classical music in the sense that they did Gershwin and all those people like that, and out of doing that, and putting it in the creative form that they could do, it became an entity in the business. Then always, when it comes being creative, it's just my opinion but I feel if you go back and think about what came before, your Brahms and Mozarts and all of them as writers, Beethoven and all those cats, they had to struggle to present that music. As great as it is and always will be, they had to struggle, because it was creative. It wasn't based on commerciality.

DB–It doesn't seem like you've ever gone in that direction, of just trying to be "Mr. Commercial"...

JS–No, that's not the music. Well, it wasn't the music for me. There's a lot that I can listen to and enjoy, but when it becomes repetitious, and everybody's doing the same thing, that's where I fall out with it. You know, because every artist wants to be a star and boom, that's all that's on their mind, "I wanna be a star!"

DB–They're more concerned with stardom than the creativity...

JS–Of the work, and of the art.

DB–Now, we were talking a bit before we got on the microphone about Cleveland when you were coming up and singing in your early years. How did you get started singing in clubs?

JS–We had some pretty supportive clubs at that time. It wasn't big money or anything like that but Cleveland was, then, very supportive of the creative works and jazz. We had complete shows in some of the clubs here. You could go see the chorus girls, the comedians, the tap dancers, everybody would be on the show together. And that happened right here, at 55th, down at the Bluegrass. They prepared their stage to present big shows, complete shows.

DB–So being a vocalist, or a balladeer, you were sort of one element of this production?

JS–Right. And the older guys that had been in the business before, once they found out that I could sing they'd say, "Come on man, do this gig. I'll give you a couple of bucks," and with your anxiety you went. That's what got me really into it.

DB–When you were starting out here in Cleveland, was it easy to get up there and do your thing or did you some element of stagefright. How was it for you?

JS–Well for me, I was afraid because I thought maybe nobody would want to hear me sing. Still, the activity that was going on in the city sort of supported your interest. We had, right here on Euclid, and I think it was right where WHK used to have a station, the Metropolitan Theater. Every week, they were bringing a band out of New York. Complete shows. It was like a little Apollo. Those shows would come in here and be here a whole week. I got a gig in there as an usher...

DB–So that you could see the music?

JS–Yeah! Just to be near the music. I would up producing a show there. The Summer Music Festival. All the local kids that were singing around here, we pulled them together, of course most of us hung out together anyway, and we put on this little show here. For that time, 1945, it was successful, in the sense of creating interest for the music.

DB–Who were some of the other folks that were here in Cleveland that you were doing things with at that time?

JS–Okay, you got young Bross Townsend on piano. He was here and this was his base area. Tadd Dameron's from here...

DB–Sure, the great composer...

JS–A great composer and a great pianist as well. And then he had his older brother who played baritone and was very into it. He had clubs here that supported the interest in jazz.

DB–So there were a lot of things happening...

JB–Yeah! From 55th, all the way back to 105th, and then going north of 105th, there were clubs running all up in there. The Tiajuana, the Mercury Bar, the Society Cafe, they all had some kind of live entertainment.

DB–And they all fed off each other because people would go from one place to another.

JS–Exactly! And then in the later years, Jack's Bar had always been there down at Cedar and Clarkwood. He had always been there because of the fellows that were working in those old factories. They sort of catered to that. They'd get off work and go there to have their drinks. Then he developed the musical interest and it became a happening place. Like I said, from 55th, all the way back. We'd get up at night and decide, "Well, where are we going tonight?" We'd get out early enough so it would be, oh man, we'll go over here, then we'll all meet at Cassie's. That was a restaurant on 55th. The Majestic Hotel, all of those places were great supporters of the jazz and the creative works. So it made for a nice platform.

DB–How did you first get involved with Lionel Hampton make the connection that led to those records?

JS–Well, I had done this production in 1945 at the Metropolitan Theater. And after that, a young lady working for the Call & Post here, she decided she wanted Lionel Hampton to hear me. At the time I was in Dayton, Ohio, at a club in Dayton, and she called me there and arranged with Lionel Hampton to let me come in. Every week, whatever city or state it was, even after I was with the band, there would be two or three up and coming singers, and he would have a night where they would have these kids come down and sing. So, I wasn't selected as one who would be on the contest, because it was already agreed that I'd come in and sing. She was trying back then to get me to be a part of that band. So I went, I think he was here at the Palace Theater, so I went and I did a couple of numbers with him on his show. Of course, I was appreciative of having the opportunity just to do that. But, a year later was when he asked someone to reach me and I joined the band. They were doing a gig in St. Louis, so I started with him there, in St. Louis.

DB–So it must have made a memorable impression on him.

JS–Definitely. On occasions I get a chance to bump into him. All of us keep up with him. You know, Betty was one of the kids that came from his schooling in that band. Betty Carter. Oh, there was so many of them that had been there. Illinois Jacquet, Johnny Griffin, Arnett Cobb, Eli Adams, from here, he also played in the sax section.

DB–Did he have a couple singers on the road with him at the same time?

JS–Always. The man carried a complete little show.

DB–Because I know about the same time your records were coming out there were records by Sonny Parker and Betty Carter.

JS–Sonny Parker and all of these same people, except for Betty. I don't think she was on the platform we had here in Cleveland, I think she came a bit after that. But she was very big around Detroit and Michigan. That's where she came from originally. But Sonny Parker was here. Johnny Griffin, he was with different little bands back in those days but he was roped in for the "Flying Home" deal.

DB–He took the spotlight on "Flying Home"?

JS–Illinois was there first. He was the one that made the original record. Illinois Jacquet...

DB–But after that, they always had to have someone do it...

JS–Well, yeah, because Illinois had grown into his own thing. He was off and gone. Bobby Plater, he was in that band, he stayed right there until the end, and he did a lot for the music that the band was involved with.

DB–Now, even before you hooked up with Lionel Hampton, you mentioned Dayton, you were doing gigs all around Ohio?

JS–Oh yeah. All around Ohio, plus I had been all through the South with a young lady, we all called her "Mom," Caldonia. Estelle Young. And if any of us who are living today, we knew, whatever we knew it was because of her pushing and giving you the opportunity to venture out around the nation. Through that, your careers were created.

DB–So she did a travelling show that you were a part of?

JS–She did a contortion act, which was body forming by music. But she had a little comedy skit that went with it. Louis Jordan, who had the song "Caldonia", he named her. So whenever she went out it was always "Caldonia's Review." Many of the young entertainers around here got great opportunities to go on the road because that woman was there to guide them and push them. And she didn't stand for no stuff. You learned it right.

DB–That's really a different system than the way it is now, with people coming up through school.

JS–Well, it's just an opinion of mine but I think they miss something. There's a different attitude completely. The kids have that concept of "I'm a star!" Well, you learned differently back then. It wasn't about stardom. It was about creating your work, doing the best you could do, and presenting yourself properly. The old hands who had been in the business, they would pass this down to you. It was like going to school. I think kids today miss something by not being a part of that kind of platform. I go back and I realize that people like Judy Garland, Donald O'Connor, Mel Torme even, they had such a great thing because the old hands who were in the business sort of kept them in line. And they found something more than just, "I'm a star."

DB–Who were some of your favorites when you were first starting as a singer? Is there anyone you modeled yourself after or aspired to be like?

JS–I don't think I ever modeled myself after anyone. That was just my way. But there was a person who struck me very strongly. It used to be an exciting thing when you heard that a black singer or a black orchestra was going to be on the radio, because we didn't have TV back then. Paul Robeson. I'll never, I didn't believe that there was anyone that could tell a song in story fashion any greater than him. He had just a power over his expression of how he relayed songs to you. And it had to be real because HE said it. So that sort of struck me as something. It created some interest for me.

DB–He made you believe the message he was putting across.

JS–Right. He made you believe that message and made you understand the meaning of the lyric that was being used.

DB–Much like the way an actor would put across his lines.

JS–Exactly. And he did turn out to be a heck of an actor, doing "Othello" and a lot of the classics. So it was there. Everybody says, "That's strange" because you are a jazz balladeer, but it makes no difference. Creativity is there and you sense it. It's there, that's all. And to me, he was the cat that had it. There were other singers too. Herb Jeffries was another singer I had heard.

DB–He was with the Ellington band, right?

JS–That's right. Early years. Early conception of the band. That was before Billy Eckstine. Then when Billy comes along he sets the trend for all the male singers. Everybody wanted to be a baritone balladeer like Billy Eckstine.

DB–No one was more suave and sophisticated.

JS–Exactly. And then too, he generated this interest in the knowledge of the business, and the knowledge of the art. He brought it forth, because Billy was a trombone player in "Fatha" Hines band back in those days when he was beginning to sing. That's where a lot of musicians came from, was from "Fatha" Hines band.

DB–Yeah, he had that great band back in the forties. Now, getting back to Lionel Hampton. You first connected with him and then you recorded some songs with him, maybe four or five?

JS–I think it was four or five. The thing was, we were in the Apollo Theatre and this young lady had come to some of other singers and tried to get them to be interested in recording her song. So she came with the song "Everybody's Somebody's Fool." I said "Okay, I'll see if he'll let me record it," So someone told him (Hampton), "Well, Jimmy's got this song." Well, we had left New York and gone out to California. We always ended the tours there, in California for a couple weeks and then we would start back East. So on our way back he comes to me and says, "Hey, get that song. Where's that song?" I said okay. So I had that organ player I was telling you about.

DB–Doug Duke. [Doug Duke, a native of Argentina, played organ and piano with Hampton in the late '40s and early '50s. Jimmy Scott had explained to me prior to this conversation that he and Duke were room mates on the road during their years with the Hampton band.]

JS–Right. And he put Doug and I backstage at, I think it was the Fox Theatre in Detroit. Doug and I went back, and her meter was sort of twisted but the thought in the song, for some reason he liked it and I liked sort of liked the story in it, too. That's how we came about doing "Everybody's Somebody's Fool."

DB–So the story was there and you just had to touch it up a little bit musically.

JS–Right, Well, she was young but it did her good, so I'm glad of that, you know. By my taking it, it got that attention and it did her good because she wound up having a big publishing office there in New York.

DB–That song really took off and has always kind of been the one song that everybody, when they think of Jimmy Scott they think of "Everybody's Somebody's Fool."

JS–That's right. Then there was another one, "I've Been A Fool." Those two connected pretty nicely with the public back then.

DB–I was just noticing that they have finally re-issued those songs on CD. For a long time you couldn't find them.

JS–Well, they could have found them but no one wanted to deal with the devil giant. [Scott is referring now to the recordings he made later in the '50s for the Savoy label - which have also been recently re-issued on CD. The "devil giant" he speaks of is Savoy owner Herman Lubinsky.] Oh, this man was something else, but heh, over the years this man had one of the greatest jazz collections in the world and there weren't too many people in the music that had not, at one time or another recorded for him.

DB–At Savoy Records.

JS–Savoy Records, yeah. Herman Lubinsky would get a quart of scotch and five bucks a piece and set up his four-track and record like crazy. After you got to dealing with him you found out he was a shrewd lawyer.

DB–He had done a lot of things, I know he had you under contract a period of time.

JS–He had myself, but I wasn't the only one, and he actually didn't have a contract in the depth that he projected. I go back and remember Little Esther, she had such a big problem with him.

DB–She couldn't get out of her association with him?

JS–Well, she finally did get some lawyer who would battle with Lubinsky.

DB–But Lubinsky had everyone thinking, at least, that he had everyone under contract and he would scare off the other record companies.

JS–Oh yeah. It also caused a big problem with the release of "Falling In Love Is Wonderful" on Ray Charles' label, Tangerine Records. That was in the way. I look at it though as an artist, that at least he (Ray Charles) was trying to do something to create something for me by recording me for his label. But he was young in the business, that part of the business.

DB–The contractual end?

JS–Right, and the whole record business and all. He has some fabulous stuff in his library today. You know, because he's got a lot of Percy Mayfield. I always called him the prophet of the blues. If anyone could tell a blues story, Percy Mayfield could tell it, you dig?

DB–He's one of the greatest songwriters, I think. People still don't realize all the songs he wrote. [Mayfield is best known for the blues standard "Please Send Me Someone To Love." He also wrote songs for Ray Charles in the '60s.]

JS–And they don't realize that he was a jazz bluesman.

DB–Explain that a little bit more.

JS–When I say jazz bluesman, I mean that he could take the blues and he would, if you would listen to his records, everyone in there was a jazz musician. Everybody in the band.

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